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Talk:As The Fire Dies
Galgus 17:06, 21 May 2011 (UTC) Talon in Space! This should be interesting, steam-punk spaceships would be awesome. :Endless Twilight: This isn't actually about the Talon in space - that's purely the setup. As I wrote it, though, the Talon don't really have spaceships. They can get into space via space cannons ala Jules Verne and have in fact been in space since the 1800s (hence Jules Verne writing From the Earth to the Moon after seeing the Talon space program), but don't have much in the way of ships yet. Their long-term plan is to go the solar sailing route and are working on the technology needed to make it happen, but space isn't a high priority for them at the moment. Worst comes to worst, they can always launch giant mirrors into orbit and use their surface-to-space spectrum propulsion generators as impromptu death rays from space... I may later write up this stuff as a more detailed lore piece about the Talon in space, but that's not the point here. :This is going to be a purely speculative fiction piece, rather than something to try and fit into the backstory, though it will probably feature some familiar characters from my other writing. SФЯДTДZ 18:03, 21 May 2011 (UTC) "...They can get into space via space cannons ala Jules Verne and have in fact been in space since the 1800s..." NO they CANNOT. They never did and never will, they don't even have any interest in space; And Jules Verne was NOT a Talon guy. You better write this as fan fiction or I will delete it. Endless Twilight: Odd how you didn't object to the Tempest Submersible article a while back, which also associated Verne with the Talon... but sheesh, if you're going to get so prissy over an idea (the Talon having a space program) that I've brought up before and gotten generally positive feedback on the idea of, I'll go ahead and mark it as fan fiction in addition to the non-canon tag... SФЯДTДZ 18:11, 21 May 2011 (UTC) It's the fact that they have no technology to go into space, neither manned nor unmanned; And don't call me prissy. I am not the one who is makes the Talon a factions Sue. :Endless Twilight: The Order is the steampunk faction, and there's a good steampunk way to get into space: space cannons, which Verne wrote about. It's simple: stick a Talon Steel capsule in a gigantic cannon and let er rip. The cannon to the more modern rocket, as it were. Both get things really far, really fast. For that matter, space cannons are used in some sci-fi - all the Order needs is railgun tech and they're set for surface-to-space travel with magnetic technobabble to explain how they can keep people alive with it. :And I take offense to your implication that I make the Talon a faction Sue. Yes, I emphasize their more benevolent and capable aspects. Other people emphasize their negative aspects and I don't disagree. And please, explain to me how stating that the Order has limited space flight makes them a Sue - pretty much every other faction is in space, so why not the Order using appropriate steampunk style? ::SФЯДTДZ 18:42, 21 May 2011 (UTC) You are forgetting that you ONLY emphasise their positive aspects. Whenever I read something you write about the Talons, it's always about how they do stuff that is good, basicly they are the steam punk version of what the Allies are supposed to be. And this page disagrees with you. :::Political incorrectness incoming 18:57, 21 May 2011 (UTC): While I agree with Kamuik or whatever he calls himself these days (:P), the Space Race page might not be cannon, seeing as I wrote that sentence. :::Endless Twilight: The space race lore can change, but I most certainly do see the Talon as what the Allies are supposed to be - unethical, but very, very moral. However, the reason I write about the Order's leadership and people in senior positions with a relatively significant amount of freedom is because those are the people with the most room to be good and open-minded. Most members of the Order are not, and I don't write about them to any degree because I'm bad at doing so. I find it hard to write a group I see as the good guys as the bad guys and vice versa. There are other people on this wiki who hold different views from me and write accordingly. That's sort of the point of a wiki like this - people with a wide range of views can and should write and contribute. :::As a matter of fact, that's one of the big reasons I didn't accept my nomination to be an admin. I'm biased in favor of the Order and to a lesser extent the Confederates. I know it and admit it. I see the Empire in particular as being a nightmare under the hellishly polite and ordered veneer they affect. I don't particularly care to be more neutral or objective because I don't do it well. What I do well is good guys being good guys and bad guys being bad guys. Taken together, not good traits for an admin or someone with serious input on the lore. Therefore, I'm not. :::And for that matter, I'm only just getting started on things in this tale that are very firmly non-canon. There will be an explanation for it all, even - or especially - the very non-canon parts at the very end, but that will be a while off. It's not like much of anything I've written about is suddenly gospel in any event. Yes, Masoko Okamura and Deirdre Winters seem to have made it in, but other characters and concepts such as the Lampades and their leader (who I now call Nyx rather than Persephone - Nyx being the Greek primal goddess of the night), Alessandra d'Angelo who will show up in the next chunk, my expansion of Lydia Winters, and now the Talon space stuff are all firmly non-canon. Maybe some of it will be adopted or used, if not by the admins then by other writers. More likely none of it will. That doesn't bother me a bit, as I'm writing for fun. :::As it is for the Talon space stuff, as I'm writing it here they are in space, but don't have space ships yet, nor do they have any immediate plans to build any. If they did, I'm thinking the Talon would use stately solar sailing craft and generally go for an Age of Sail IN SPACE! vibe in contrast to the other groups (as I see it... Allies = Alliance from Firefly, Soviets = Galactic Empire from Star Wars, Empire = some anime stuff, Confederates = Twelve Colonies from Battlestar Galactica, China = Federation from Star Trek, Syndicate = stuff from The Fifth Element, Protectorate = cheesy 60's sci-fi of your choice, maybe Cylons from BSG, Talon = Honor Harrington meets Battlefleet Gothic). :::And on a secondary note, I must admit that I find it entertaining how you're jumping on me writing about the Talon being in space when the central plot point in this piece is the stars are disappearing. :::And finally a reminder - the space stuff is only being used for the first bits of this. ::::Political incorrectness incoming 22:12, 21 May 2011 (UTC): What does "unethical but moral" mean? :::::Endless Twilight: That they tend to do bad things for good reasons. The Talon, for example, have little respect for human rights but when they violate human rights they do so for what they consider very good reasons. The Soviets, in my mind, are just the opposite - yes, their system works and overall I'd call the Soviets good guys by what they do, but their motivations really aren't idealistic and altruistic, although that may be a sticky point. :::::Then again, when I write I tend to loosely clump the various Paradox powers into good guy/bad guy groups for purposes of gross oversimplification. Allies, Confederates, Soviets, and Order are the good guys, the Empire, Syndicate, China, and Protectorate are the bad guys. --Open sketchbook 19:09, 21 May 2011 (UTC) : Talon in space! Canon? Probably not. Awesome? Probably definately. Graven Image 20:48, 21 May 2011 (UTC) I cannot add anything to this discussion that has not just been summarized in the most direct and concise terms by our glorious leader. Protroid 23:54, 21 May 2011 (UTC) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFgeustBpFk That is all. the cutting Edge 03:24, 22 May 2011 (UTC):Definitely more awesome than Talon Nuclear Steam Engines... Wait, what do they burn for power in those stations, anyway? :Endless Twilight: That's classified. Psychotic Loner 05:04, 22 May 2011 (UTC) - All right, time to lay down what I think. Let's go beyond the technology. Let's go beyond Verne and beyond Mount Sinai Station. The big question is why would the Talon even bother with space? Are there Black Hand in space? Is there a jotted runner on the bottom of the Ancient Prophecy of Acre which states "Oh, yeah, unless we get things in space in the next few centuries, evil purple spiders will invade us"? The Talon is specific in it's purpose; to end the Cult of the Black Hand. Shooting probes into space doesn't help that, unless said probes contained Black Hand. :Endless Twilight: I thought of it in more strategic terms: high ground is good, and low orbit is very high ground indeed. Probes helped them gather the data to do it successfully. I would think they would have an eye towards space in modern times for the simple reason that as humanity pushes deeper and deeper into space, sooner or later the Cult will go with the rest of humanity. And so the Order must be prepared to stop the Cult, though that may be a long-term thing. I could see some of the more far-sighted among the Order worrying about things like the Cult possibly attaching engines to an asteroid and sending it Earth's way, for example. ::Tayya 17:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC): I am skeptical to the conservative Talon finding such radical ways to combat the Black Hand "just in case". Yes, there will be proponents... but they will be cut down by those who believe that going to space isn't only heretical, like the Tower of Babel, but also impractical and unlikely to see any use. :::Endless Twilight: And I am skeptical of the paranoid Talon ignoring the threat that enemies in space pose. OSB has said that if the Chinese wanted to wipe out the world, they could just point their engines at Earth while leaving. A true beanstalk-style space elevator sounds like something the Allies might try to build, but imagine what might happen if the stalk were to snap... or a C&C3-style ion cannon satellite, or the aforementioned asteroid moving, or any of a dozen methods of planetary devastation that become available once humanity is consistently in space and actively doing stuff up there. Heck, the strategic value of observation satellites wouldn't pass the Order by. :::Admittedly, the Order could just have developed surface-to-space weapons that the Order is confident can handle any orbital problems, but the Order isn't stupid. They adopted airplanes, tanks, and submarines as soon as the technology became practical for the self-evident strategic and tactical value such weapons hold. I don't see the Order ignoring space as the next new theater of warfare. They're conservative, not Luddites. ::::Tayya 18:55, 22 May 2011 (UTC): I don't care how paranoid the Talon are, the very idea that they would spend large amounts of resources on space technology, a theatre that would be outlandish to them and that the Black Hand probably isn't close to anyways. One of the drawbacks of the Talon is that they aren't innovative enough to do stuff like this, because if they did the Hand would be gone by now. Instead, they remain in chase of the Hand, adapting to their new methods but failing to predict their next moves. The Order may be dug deep into stuff, but they aren't ominscient nor omnipotent. ::::Honestly, you're overestimating the innovativeness of the Talon by a bunch and underestimating how stupidly stubborn they can be by an equal amount. The more far-sighted and innovative in the Talon are in a clear minority, but a clear majority in most lore and fan fiction. Is this because you want to leave their bad sides out as you said before, then it's fine as long as it's fan fiction, but at least keep it that way and don't let this near canon status. Remember this: while you say that you leave the negative aspects of the Talon to others, you fail to remember that most "necessary" unit lore is already written, that you are de facto the only one capable of writing independent works, and that the quality of them not only is high enough that I can't recall Sketch himself ever questioning it, even if it's left as fan fiction, but also scares away people from touching the Talon in order to not conflict with not only Sketch, but the loremistress. At least this is my perspective. This is why care is needed, and why I do agree that the Talon are close to becoming a Faction Sue. :::::Endless Twilight: ...You have points, and good ones. Admins, feel free to delete this article, and any of my other works if you feel it conflicts with the lore. I did not intend to run away with the lore like I apparently have, not to be such a big influence on the Talon's official lore. My personal approach is to treat every faction as a borderline Sue - one over-the-top group versus another versus another, and I think there are groups far worthier of the title than how I've treated the Talon, coughalliescoughempirecough. At any rate, I abandon my guns and surrender the field to you. :::::: Galgus 19:17, 22 May 2011 (UTC) I agree that the Allies are something of a faction sue if only because most people seem to see them as the most "good" faction, but I honestly don't see much talk about the Empire. Personally, I think the Empire is pretty messed up, though not quite as much as before, and that the Allies have very real flaws that could cause very real problems if they get everything they want. :::::::Tayya 19:27, 22 May 2011 (UTC): I might have been a bit harsh, but I needed to consolidate my thoughts. I think your pieces could and should be kept, if only as fan-fiction, as long as us other people thinks through carefully before writing lore as to not become influenced by fan stories, and as long as we learn to dare to challenge you. ;) :::::::The Allies are partly a Faction Sue too, but at the same time we've worked pretty hard to bring up their worse sides. It's not only about the actual lore content, but how the faction is percieved in general - which is affected by all works, canon or not, and which is why I worried about the Talon lore. Anyways, Sketch's MKULTRA article did for example work towards scaring the wiki-goers of the Allies' potential dark gray side, and the recent depiction of Boise was intended to be the same for the Confederates. It's not much but it helps. The Allies also has the benefit of many people having worked on it, in contrast to the Talon and Syndicate, dominated by Twilight and Renteria respectively, with the result that people (read: I) can be afraid to contradict them. It's basically easier to change the Allies. The Empire hasn't been touched upon as much, and there are depths ready to be explored. Joshh 23:04, 22 May 2011 (UTC): I've kind of avoided weighing in on this article due to its controversial nature, but as an Admin I guess I should. Well, here goes. I can understand that the Talon have good telescopes. Probably a necessity for the Operation Firestorm (hijacking an Athena Killsat). But, why do they care in the slightest if a star disappears? It happens all the time - the Talon can't record the telescopes 24/7 so they might have missed as supernova if the observer took a nap or something. Which brings me to point number 2. ET, in a lot of your non-canon articles (esp. your fanfiction campaigns) you have the Talon opposing the EP, often before other groups. My question is, why would the Talon focus-fire the EP before they become a significant threat? As I understand it, the EP have no connection to the Black Hand (aside from the slim possibility that Jakob might be totally-not-Kane. In which case, how do they know? Also, space. IN SPAAAAACE. It's been said before, but why on Earth would the Talon be slightly interested in space? They don't fight the Chinese - the major space-users in Paradox, and as far as I know, the Black Hand is not anywhere close to space. Well, this turned out to be a lot longer than I intended, and I rambled quite a bit. :Endless Twilight: Who said this had anything to do with the EP, hmmm? I don't know if I want to continue this now that the discussion has gone completely off the rails in entirely different directions, but the idea of this story is that it's actually an apocalyptic nightmare of Lady Maria, and the stars going out has nothing to do with the EP. Instead, the Allies unleashed something they didn't understand with GAP and the Confederates made worse with PAWI, followed by disastrous Soviet experiments in reverse-engineering the same technology. The Soviets had a brush with the Icon, but the Icon isn't causing what's happening in this story. What's happening is that reality itself is starting to break down after being stretched and torn and played with too much, and it would have devolved to the Talon, Syndicate, and Chinese finally twigging to what's happening and trying in vain to stop it. The stars are going out because reality as humans understand it is breaking up. :And putting the Talon in space for this tale was mainly something for my own entertainment - informally proposing what a Talon space program might look like and entirely glossing over why they might be in space. I concur with the general public assessment: cool but doesn't fit. Again, it was only supposed to be a backdrop, but I backed off from writing more in the tale when this discussion went haywire. the cutting Edge 02:10, 23 May 2011 (UTC): While agreeing that Talon IN SPACE is not a good idea, from a lore point of view,I'm looking at it as more of a what if, or, perhaps an Alternate Reality, if you will. The In universe Talon might not have spaceflight, but in some odd, remote corner of the Red Alert multiverse, they might indeed have it, so as blatantly non-cannon fanfic, I don't find this to be particularly unlikely. And since ET isn't campaigning for the Talon to acquire spaceflight in the cannon, I don't particularly see the problem.